MA: Just a footnote to casting. [INT: Yeah.] Sometimes when you could go many ways to go with a character, it's good to have a mate, a friend with you, you know, an Actor that you know that you've worked with just as a sounding board, or someone whose eye you can catch when something weird is happening. And you know, Ciaran Hinds is like that with me. If there's a part for him, I mean, he's a great Actor, but you know, he could do it easy, and he's prepared to do it, it's great to have a chum on the set sometimes. [INT: Boy, you bet.]

INT: In the casting room, who's in there with you?

MA: Well, as few people as possible, really. I mean sometimes, you know, you have to have Producers in and all this sort of stuff, but if can be, you know, just me and the cast director, the less the better, I mean, frankly. [INT: Do you ever have an Actor with...?] Yes, I'll bring. Yes, I mean, sometimes if you're casting a supporting role and you know you've got your lead, and the lead wants to be part of that, I can hardly refuse that. You know, and they're prepared to read with people, and take their input, I'll certainly do that. I mean, unless I think they're kind of balmy and are gonna sort of upset people, so I'll do that. And I get, if I'm down to, you know, deciding between four or five Actors, and they're going to really audition for me, I'll bring an Actor in to play with them. You know, I'll try and make it as professional as I can.

INT: In finding the young boy in NARNIA [THE CHRONICLES OF NARNIA: THE VOYAGE OF THE DAWN TREADER], what was that process?

MA: Well, that was legwork. You know, there was a, we saw a lot boys, but we did see that boy, we did see him early on. And we did think, "Holy cow, this is something." And then we, you know, there was a nightmare, because they kept postponing the film. And he was losing heart, and you know, I thought I might lose him, and also he was growing up. You know, and in fact, he grew six inches during the course of the last couple of, few weeks of the filming, but that was a nightmare with that film; it got postponed so often. They were just growing up and getting bigger. [INT: Did you communicate with him during the process, when you said, "I want you to do this movie, but we're..."?] Yeah, and we cast him, we knew we had to have him. And then, yes, I kept him posted. [INT: And how did you do that?] Well, I mean, again, I had to tell him what was going on, look, you know, the first film [THE CHRONICLES OF NARNIA: THE LION, THE WITCH AND THE WARDROBE], the first one was a colossal hit, huge hit. And so then they started the second one [THE CHRONICLES OF NARNIA: PRINCE CASPIAN], and they were so pleased with themselves that they said, "We'll start the third one as well, and we'll do the third one back-to-back." And then the second one started to fall apart. It wasn't going well; they hadn't prepared it properly. It was costing a fortune, so then they had to postpone me; they had to put me back six months. You know, and then we had, I think it was the Writer's strike, and that put us back another six months, and all this sort of stuff. And then you know the second one opened and didn't do well, so then they slashed my budget almost in half. You know, it was horrible. [INT: And what did you tell the boy in the process?] Well, I just had to tell them what was going on, I mean, we were all in on this, you know? I mean all of us were hanging on and not knowing what to do, and whether they were actually gonna make the film, and then Disney [Walt Disney Pictures] pulled out of it, and then Fox [20th Century Fox] came in. I mean, you know, I was on the film for three and a half years, and those two, and two years we didn't do very much, you know? I went to locations all over the world for each different iterations of it: let's do a location version, let's do a studio version, let's do a mixture. Oh my god. But the casting with the kids, you know, was so difficult because as I said, they were growing up.

INT: Dealing with background artists in casting, is that part of your process?

MA: A little bit, yeah. I don't get too into, I mean, you know, I want to know that my AD [Assistant Director] is interested in that, so that becomes part of the hiring of the AD, you know? And then, you know, I always want to look at everybody. But I don't necessarily talk to them. Sometimes I'll talk to them in a group, or something like that. Just thinking of NARNIA [THE CHRONICLES OF NARNIA: THE VOYAGE OF THE DAWN TREADER], if I was casting the extras on the boat, you know, and so I'd get a group of them together and I'd just talk about the boat and all this, and see, you know, how savvy they were, and stuff like that. So if it's a very specialist thing, yes, I'll take a bit of trouble to, so they can help. You know, so they're not, you know, they're not just drifting around doing nothing. But general background, no I always look at all the pictures, just to make sure there's nothing weird going on, but really I'll leave that to, you know, to the ADs [Assistant Director]. [INT: And when you had, for example, a group like all the people in the House of Lords or the House of Commons, that's a large group, did you...? [Kagan referring to AMAZING GRACE]] Yeah. I did take a bit of trouble with that. Again, you know, make sure that they were people I could rely on and you know and we had one or two tricky things; people who kind of pissed around when we were shooting and all this sort of stuff, but with that, when I've got people in very importantly. But then again, I would try and use people who had more experience, you know, people who would surround the main characters, because when you're pretty much in the same place, you know, over the course of the film. So, yeah, I mean, I'm aware when it's going to be very important, you know, when background is more important than when it's not. And then if it is important, I'll be very careful. [INT: Do you mix real and an Actor, let's say--I'm thinking also now of GORILLAS IN THE MIST, because there're certain crowd scenes in which, you know, some people are in the foreground who we assume that were background artists that have been chosen, and then there's just I guess the people that are there.] Yeah, they're all local people. I mean, we shot some of it, we shot the gorilla stuff in Rwanda, and then we shot the rest of it in Kenya. And the small bits of, you know, of fake gorillas we did in Kenya as well. You know, when they're having their heads cut off, or when I needed close-ups. But I mean, there weren't many professional people. I mean, the guy who played Sembagare, the guide, was someone I found in Kenya who had never acted before, who came in on a casting call. And I just liked his manner, and I just liked him and we got on well, and you know, he worked on a, you know, on a wildlife reservation, and all that sort of stuff, and so he knew stuff. And so, you know, that was a chance I took, but that seemed to be a fairly safe bet. But you know, it was a bit tricky there, because you know, they're... especially in Rwanda, because they had no idea what we were doing. They've never seen a film, let alone seen a film made. They'd never seen a movie. So they thought were, they thought we were a kind of army, a mercenary army, we're going to attack Zaire. That's what they thought all that equipment was and everything--very strange. I mean it was a life-changing experience, that film. You were in the Middle Ages, you know, there was no infrastructure, one road and no radio, no newspapers, no nothing. You ate what you grew, it was apocalyptic, you know, it was Catholic country. Women looked 60 when they were 30 and had had seven children, and there was famine, there was AIDS, it was an amazing experience. And you knew it going in. I knew it was going to be amazing, even if it would be a nightmare, the film, the life, it was life-changing. [INT: Life-changing in the sense that you never seen this kind of world before?] No. And it's hard to believe we were on the same planet. And, you know, how screwed up, you know, some parts of the world are. You know, through no fault of their own, you know?

INT: And then in using film as we do, and I guess, in a way, a documentary are really a primary example of which film has more influence on awakening a…

MA: Well, too few, unfortunately. I mean, when I did a direct attempt and a piece of proselytizing, which was OGLALA [INCIDENT AT OGLALA], which was to get then Peltier [Leonard Peltier] a new trial. You know, we failed. And we gave it a good shot, because you know, Redford [Robert Redford] really, there was tension between and me generally, but he did very well selling the film. You know, he took it to Washington [Washington, D.C.], he really put himself out there, but we had no effect. You know, Leonard is still in prison; he's dying. You know, people want him to be able to die with his family, but you know they weren’t moving it. Then we had some hope that Clinton [Bill Clinton] would pardon him, but he didn't; he got frightened by the FBI. So, you know, that one big attempt to proselytize really didn't come off. There was an agenda and we didn't pull it off.

INT: But as you think--now this is a broader question, but do you think about the influence of these two forms to awaken or even change behavior of a viewer? Are you finding any sense that, "Well, maybe the drama is more effective than the dramatic documentary?" And I suspect this is an ongoing conversation in your own mind.

MA: Yeah. It is, yeah. I really don't know the answer. Sometimes, you know, a film like COAL MINER’S DAUGHTER has stayed around. I mean, it's constantly on television; I think it must've influenced people's attitude towards that part of the world, you know, which was embarrassing to an outsider beforehand, but I didn't know that would happen. And other films, which have been more directly proselytizing, have disappeared. I don't think you know. I mean I think the other films have had an effect on people. I mean, you know, as they mature and go on, and who would've thought? So it doesn't trouble me; it engages me. I choose material on that reason. Normally, if I think there's a real message here that I can disguise, you know, within emotions, and with a good story, but there's a real strong message in here, I'll do that film over something else; AMAZING GRACE was, you know, I had a tremendous, although it ended all conflict, in a way, with Phil Anschutz [Philip Anschutz], who paid for the film, I mean, he wanted, he was interested in the religious part of it. I wasn't. I was interested, I wanted to make a film about politics. I wanted to make a film that was positive about politics, to show how powerful politics can be. And William Wilberforce was not a high and mighty politician. He was a dirty bugger. You know, he pulled dirty tricks and all this, but he did it for a great reason. And he was master politician. The fact that he was saintlike didn't concern me at all. And Phil and I had some disputes about that, but he ended up loving the film. You know, he goes on about it. It's embarrassing, ‘cause it didn't do very well; he probably lost money on it. But so, you know, if I can find a film which has got a message that I'm interested in, ‘cause I think politics is interesting and I think we're doing our best to sabotage politics in the public eye, and to find a film that actually dealt with politics in a heroic manner, you know, is why I wanted to do it, and that's what, you know, that's what drew me to the film. You know, and then in a subsequent film, you know, with NARNIA [THE CHRONICLES OF NARNIA: THE VOYAGE OF THE DAWN TREADER], then we had more trouble, which I lost, you know, about making the religious, Christian elements of Narnia, you know, which again, I knew it was gonna be a problem. You don't take the job, you know, but so you win some, lose one, some. But I mean, you know, I picked AMAZING GRACE for that specific reason--to give that message. [INT: It's so fascinating, just thinking about LINCOLN now, because obviously LINCOLN's theme here is that, you know, the means justify.] Yeah, I mean, I think they're not dissimilar, the films in their message, you know, that Lincoln [Abraham Lincoln] is projected as someone who "You get those bloody votes. You go get them. If you can't get them, get out of here. You know, we've got to do this." [INT: You know, in a way it reflects to some degree that your beginning comment, you said the word "cunning", getting that first job.] Yeah. [INT: And also, it's certainly gonna reflect our conversation about the Guild [DGA], because I'm sure, you know, there are stories that you will or will not tell, but I'm sure there's stuff that's gonna reflect the fact that, you know, you're dealing with the political nature of... And I guess in a way, in a strange way, because, you know, politics itself may reflect every relationship, you know? You're political with your family, you know?] Yeah, sure, yeah. [INT: I mean, you're just...] But I mean, political with a big P. You know, with AMAZING GRACE--there's so few films made that celebrate politics, you know? Politics, politicians are invariably the bad guys and all this kind of stuff, and with good reason. But I still don't think you should dismiss politics, as just, you know, a dirty business. [INT: Also, the question is, you know, at least to some degree a lot of people go into it because they actually want to do good.] Yeah. I know. [INT: They may get corrupted in some fashion, but they've chosen it as, "I can make a difference.”] And you know, it's such a tough life. I mean, you know, the beam is so bright on you that a lot of people wouldn't dream of going into it, a lot of very capable, good people who have a real sense of citizenship won't go in. They don't want, you know, people make mistakes in life, we all do, and do we want those all over the front pages and all that kind of stuff. You know? [INT: Yeah. Yeah, the issue of privacy is gone.] Yeah.

INT: Let's talk about rehearsal.

MA: Well, that's a work-in-progress with me. I mean, I always used to do it a lot, I still always take time with the Actors before, I always budget that in. I always take anything from a week to two weeks with the Actors. How I use it has changed over the years, over the variety of work. I suppose in early days I used to mark the floors up, you know, rehearse it. That was my sort of television experience, and I would do that. But then I began to loosen up much more about it, and you know, do different sort of things, like doing CLASS ACTION, and I wanted Gene [Gene Hackman] to really, Hackman to really pay attention to it, and so I took him, I used to take him to court, and we'd sit and watch cases and all sort of stuff. That to me is rehearsal. So it takes different forms, but basically, I think it's for me, it's bonding, it's getting to know Actors and getting to know how they figure things out and how I figure things out, and again, it's this relationship thing. I mean, it could be, you know, going to a basketball game with someone would be my idea of a good rehearsal. Do you know what I mean? I mean, so I've loosened up that, and sometimes I insist on it. You know, I did this run of films, or two films with two great comedians, with Belushi [John Belushi] and Richard Pryor, and neither of them wanted to rehearse. Well, I made them rehearse. I said, "You gotta do it." And they both embraced it, and they were both terrific, you know, I mean, and I forced them to do it, because I thought if I didn't do it, you know, we would be in a right mess here. [INT: Now using both of those examples, there are both very improvisational beings. You got a script, in both cases, so how did rehearsal work with them because of the nature of the way they work?] Well, I mean, you know, the Pryor one [CRITICAL CONDITION] was misbegotten to an extent, and we were in trouble. I mean, first of all he was not, he was quite ill. He was you know in remission for everything. But you know it started out as one thing and became another. It started out as actually Richard doing a dramatic performance, and then the studio lost their nerve with it, and they changed it; they wanted a comedy. So that put a huge load on Richard and me. We had to make it funny, and we had to do a number of reshoots and all this sort of thing, and you know, I... I mean, he and I again we got on very well, because we realized we were in this together. I was totally out of my depth having to turn this into a comedy. And so I had to rely very heavily on his abilities to improvise and stuff like that. And the film never worked. But you know, he did his best, and you know we were mistreated, we were mis... you know, we were misguided, and I don't think it was necessarily malicious, they you know, they realized they were doing one thing and wanted another.

MA: And you know, with John [John Belushi], I mean, John was very, very interested in doing it [CONTINENTAL DIVIDE], and he sort of pursued my about it. I mean we were both at Universal [Universal Pictures]. I was doing COAL MINER’S [COAL MINER’S DAUGHTER], he was doing THE BLUES BROTHERS, and through Landis [John Landis] we got kind of friendly all that. And he had this script, you know, CONTINENTAL DIVIDE, and he wanted to do it. And he seriously wanted to have a crack at it and do, he was a little bit tired of throwing pies and all that, and he really wanted to do it and he made a real effort. We had, we rehearsed, I made him rehearse. I had Blair Brown, who was a real professional, you know, and would help and would go along with it. And he worked hard, he lost weight, he got off drugs, you know, we were rehearsing, we were in Colorado, shooting on location there, so we had wonderful places to live and all that, and good air and all that. And he really worked on it. Then it sort of fell apart too in the last third. We went to Chicago to do some of the newspaper stuff, and they wouldn't leave him alone. You know, his "friends" quote, unquote. And he went back on the drugs. But you know, we got through it and he was, he's the funniest man I've ever met, the funniest man. And it was a lovely thing to do, and it didn't work. And it could never have worked, because his audience didn't want to know about it; they wanted ANIMAL HOUSE. And the audience that might've liked the story, couldn't begin to think about seeing John Belushi play a romantic lead. [INT: Right.] And it really, I don't think it destroyed him, but it really upset him, that he could see the future and the future wasn't--I think he could've been one of the great character Actors in American cinema. [INT: Oh, without a question.]

INT: Let's talk about rehearsal process in terms of when you in the more classical way, you got all your Actors for their first get-together, what do you do?

MA: Well, I'll do an introduction, and give ‘em, you know, the overall picture of everything, of, you know, how long we're gonna this, and where--just the big picture of it all. Very little detail, you know, just what the journey's gonna be, nothing emotional or intellectual, and more that you know, the statistics of it. And then we'd read it. And then, I mean, I usually get pretty nervous at a read-through, I have to say, however many I've done. I'm not sure that I would do much more. I mean, what I usually do is let them go and do other things, like meet Costume Designers or try stuff on. I'd rather have a delay before I actually got in the nitty-gritty. And then what I tend to do is to have people in groups, you know, if you know there's a relationship or something, you know, a man and a woman in it, bring them in. And so I deal with them in small groups. And you know, they overlap, but I kind of schedule it out in the conventional way. You know, I think I'll spend two hours with them, and so and so. So I make it kind of a--and I try to stick to it. So I give a feeling of my process, which is kind of efficiency. I don't like to be soulless, but I do like to be efficient. I don't like wasting people's time. So that's so I can send a message to them of how it's going to run in a sort of gentle way. And then, you know, if it’s the rehearsal, we're rehearsing for a few days before we start shooting, then I'll start getting the groups bigger, and do bigger chunks of the story as it were. But it just seems to be important that I can show them that this is going to be efficient, that it isn't gonna be chaotic. And then if I get a sense that it needs to be more loosey-goosey, then I'm very aware of that. I mean, if I feel they think they're at school or something, and they'd much rather hang in and hang around and do stuff, then you know it's really like working with an Actor. I mean, it's just fighting with the psychology. I mean, how are you gonna get to them? How are you going to talk to them? What do they need? I think that's what I have to find out, because of, you know, a lot of experiences that I’ve had, each Actor has a different approach to it. Some like to hang back from it, some like to get in the middle of it, and all this, is to try and find out what their psyche is, which I can't usually find out when I cast them. It's usually when we get into the process. And then, you know, try and make them feel, you know, give them the safe ground that they like to be. You know, it can get tricky. I mean, if... you know, I find it difficult if Actors are lazy or you know don't really want to be bothered with it, or just think they're gonna show up and do it. You know, how school masterly one can be with them. I find that quite difficult.

INT: When you're--in rehearsing, when there's a world to be created like COAL MINER’S DAUGHTER or like, you know, AMAZING GRACE, or even, hey, the world of NARNIA [THE CHRONICLES OF NARNIA: THE VOYAGE OF THE DAWN TREADER], what kind of, you know, if you took each one of them, I don't know if you've had rehearsal periods in all the three of them--[MA: Yeah, I did, yeah.] But if you did, what, you know, I mean particularly looking at COAL MINER’S DAUGHTER, because some of these, I mean, Sissy [Sissy Spacek] has an East Texas accent, but she doesn't have that accent that she did in that movie, so what kind of work are you doing, after you've had this read-through?

MA: Well, you know, in a case like Sissy, Sissy would've already done a couple of months on it, ‘cause she had to do the singing, she had to learn the singing. Owen Bradley taught her how to sing. So she'd already been, you know, aboard doing major things like that, and also trying to sort accents out and things like that. I mean, I supposed it's kind of, it doesn't happen much these days, I suppose, you know, that, you know, suddenly you get the whole cast there, and then you're there for a week, and then you shoot the thing. Normally, it's a more gradual process, you know, because of the cost of things, and you know, how many days rehearsal can you get from Actors, and they say, "Well, we can only give us two," and all this sort of stuff. I think what I like to do is I'll do a read-through. Let's go back to the beginning. I'll do a read-through and we'll have a kind of general discussion about it, and then some of them I won't see again maybe, you know, until a couple of days before they shoot. I'd like to get as many as I can in for the read-through. I mean I won't travel people great distances just to read it. And then, after that, then I'll start on day two, after the read-through, then I'll start breaking it down. And as I said, I might want to spend two or three days with two or three Actors, just with them. And then feed other people into it. But I think it's more like that, rather than in my early days on television, you'd have them there all the time, and they'd all sit in the corner waiting for their turn. But I think it's much more, you know, it's try and make it less formalized, but do the work and make it efficient. And the other aspect of it, which is always fun, I think, is to try and make it interesting for them. You know, show them the world they're supposed to be in. You know, I mean, you know, with AMAZING GRACE, you know, we showed them around the Houses of Parliament [aka Palace of Westminster] and all this sort of stuff, and they met people. I mean, William Hague was Foreign Secretary, had written a brilliant book about William Pitt and met both Ioan [Ioan Gruffudd] and Benedict [Benedict Cumberbatch]; we took them to dinner. I mean just to kind of broaden it out and give them the context in whatever way you can do it.

INT: But, okay, in the rehearsal itself, will you be picking, let's use again, let’s use these two movies at this moment, we can pick others, and I'd like to pick NELL, too, specifically, but will you take a scene that you feel is a scene that you want to work with, will you leave certain scenes alone? I mean... [MA: Yeah, I mean--] Or will you take everything, like, I mean, if you're working with Sissy [Sissy Spacek] and Tommy Lee Jones, did you want to do all of their, if you could, all of their scenes [in COAL MINER’S DAUGHTER] in the--

MA: Yeah, probably. I mean, sometimes, you know, I don't want to, I'm very weary of over rehearsing stuff, too. I've become more weary of that as time's gone on. I think it was inexperience and more nervousness, you know, that I wanted to rehearse everything, so everything was... And I think now, you know, I have a bit more confidence that some thing's I'll leave, you know, leave alone. I mean, obviously, they're not of crucial importance, why would I do that, but try not to exhaust them with it. But again, you know, sometimes Actors want to keep working, want to keep working, and maybe flog--I won't let them flog it to death. I'll say, "I've had enough of this, let's stop." But it's so difficult to give you a formula, because it truly is, you know, you've got these disparate group of people, and it's trying to get, A, a common language, so they know how I work in a general way, and also then very specific to their own needs, you know, which can be totally different. And so it's a mixture of that. But this is kind psychology 101, you know, really, rehearsal to try and figure out how to communicate with them. [INT: And that's, I mean, that's our job. But knowing which language works with which person, I’m sure you’ve had Actors who've different...] Well, yeah, I mean... You know, my Oliver Reed/Glenda [Glenda Jackson] story was a quintessence of that.

INT: Talk about the rehearsal on NELL, because you were--you did talk about that, finding, literally, her [Jodie Foster as Nell] language, but then, what did you guys do in rehearsal?

MA: Well, I don’t know. I mean, we, you know, we had Bill Nicholson [William Nicholson] write a language for us. I mean, he wrote a language, probably about 60 words. And she started to get her mouth around that. So, she was articulating stuff, but it wasn't really making much sense, but she should make sense with it, so we brought Bill in to help us with that. So she created her own language, you know, which we used in the movie, which was widely satirized, particularly on SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE as you can imagine. But you know--[INT: And was that part of the rehearsal process with that?] Yes. Yeah. [INT: So, you had that lang--you found that by the time you were shooting?] Yeah. Oh, definitely. But again, you know, the tone of it was so difficult. You know, to figure out how she would behave, you know, she'd… you know, it's almost an unimaginable state to be in, and there was, there is one case, there's a book about it. You know, there's a woman in the Valley [San Fernando Valley] who was locked in a room for most of her young life who never saw other people. She was locked up by her crazy father. And you know, she became quite a famous--and there's a tiny bit of footage about her. And she died quite young. I've forgotten what her name was, but that was the one… And then there was the kind of cinematic sources; it was the Truffaut [Francois Truffaut] film, you know, about the wild child [THE WILD CHILD] and things like that. But it was really difficult, honestly. I mean I don't know whether we ever nailed it. I don't know, but it was extraordinary--you know, you see how much you rely on, especially maybe me more than some, because since I'm a documentarian, you know, I was heartbroken that we couldn't shoot GORKY PARK in Russia, for example. And I never found out what Russians had for breakfast, they threw us out, you know, we went to scout and then they discovered what we were doing and they just tossed us out of the country. So I'm mortified when I can't go to the, you know, go to the source of it all, so… And so I was really at sea with this thing, because I had no terms of reference, and no, you know, she was panicking a bit, "How do we do this? Does she talk a lot? Does she not talk?" you know. "Does she look at you? Doesn't she look at you?" I mean you can do anything. You know, you just had to make it all up. And anything goes. I mean, it's like being--on NARNIA [THE CHRONICLES OF NARNIA: THE VOYAGE OF THE DAWN TREADER], I found it incredibly difficult, ‘cause, again, you know, I'm, you know, reality-based. They would say to me, "Well, what would you like this island to be like, Mr. Apted?" And I said, "Well, what do you mean?" They said, "Well, it can be anything you want." And then my mind goes blank, apart, although people say, "Oh, what a wonderful opportunity, let's do this." And I go blank, you know, so... NELL was a real tough one in that way.

INT: If you're rehearsing, who else is in the rehearsal, not the read-through, but in these specific things where you're working with the Actors?

MA: Yeah, well, I kind of… if I like the Script Supervisor, I quite like her around, because, you know, she can track it for us and take notes, and you know, if we like certain things or if we, especially if we start moving it around a little bit, sometimes, you know, and I like that we'll draw a little graph--draw a little diagram or something. I like occasionally, the DP [Director of Photography] coming in. I like him getting to know what we're doing, but I don't like him there all the time. And I just, I like to be serviced there, i.e., you know, so we have refreshment and also if we want something, or if we want to go somewhere that can be, you know, it doesn't become a 12-act drama, you know, if we want to go to a law court or something like that we can do it. So I want things at my fingertips, because I think it's good for me to be improvising in a way. And I don't, you know, sometimes we'll improvise, but I mean improvising by what we do at rehearsal. So it doesn't get too kind of formula, formulaic, and doesn't get repetitive. So... [INT: Will you allow them immediately to if, again this is a rehearsal scene, whether--will you allow them to immediately get into a kind of blocking or--] No, I won't. [INT: And what kind of space do you use for rehearsal, if you can?] Well, yeah, I mean, I just like to improvise a space. I don't wanna say, "There's a door here." I don't feel I want to tie them down. If they want to walk around a bit, do that. You know, and messing with the script, as well, that's always, you know, a very tricky thing, and I think it's something you go through even if you come back to the text. And again, I like to have the Writer handy in case something, some, you know, big issues. I mean, I suppose the main purpose of rehearsal, actually, for me is to sort of the script, if there's any issues that we don't have to deal with that when everybody at their watch, you know, when we're two hours into the day and we haven't shot a thing. So I wanna talk about the script with them and go through the script with them, and discuss the script, and maybe have them read it, and you know, so we can exhaust all the potentials of it, and to see if there's any work we would actually like to have done by the Writer. So that's a very important part of it. [INT: In rehearsing on GORKY PARK, looking at the Bill Hurt's [William Hurt] part, how did you aid him in getting this, in rehearsal, if there was any?] Yeah, yeah. I don't really remember. I mean, he liked rehearsing, and he was, you know, interested in all that. But I think it was mainly, you know, discussing, discussing the book. The author didn't, and you know, Dennis Potter wrote that, and that tended to be a little bit in stone, you know, ‘cause Dennis, you know, was a major figure, especially in British Television, and so his... And he wrote in longhand, you know. We got this beautiful handwritten script, which I still got. [INT: Wow.] And so that was somewhat discouraging, you know? I mean, nowadays with the technology, you know, and with, you know, computers and all this sort of thing, you can toss off new drafts of things. But that was a bit intimidating, and I think that was a little bit unnerving. And you know, also, you know, he was, he was, you know, he couldn't write with his... he wrote, but he had terrible arthritis, and all this sort of stuff. And so he wasn't around much. But there was a slight feeling there that this was sort of in stone, and you better be a bit careful with it. I don't know, and it's a hard question the rehearsal, because it is a discovery. I mean, I've found if I go in with too many opinions and too much organized, and too many formulas devised, it's sort of goes against the spirit of it, it should be a time to chill out and to bond, and to feel out what the needs are gonna be, how I'm gonna get the best out of the people, whether they truly just want to think about it then leave the details of it till we're on the set, and get the inspiration from the moment, or whether they actually do want to know, "Well, on this line, you know, get to the door and then turn and come back into the room," you know, whether... so it's, you know, each rehearsal is different. But I do enjoy it. You know it helps--and also you don't, it's great to be able to discuss things without the pressure. You know, and if you want to pack it in for the day, you pack it in for the day. I'm not bad at pressure, but I'd rather not have it if big issues are coming up, and you just feel that everything pressing down on you. And, you know, whether you are ever gonna have the nerve to sort it out, or whether you have the nerve to sit it out, sit it through, and whether you're prepared to give up a half-a-day's shoot just to sort out something, you know. [INT: It better be done beforehand if we can do it beforehand at all.] Yeah.

INT: Choosing Crews, what's the process that you've been going through? Let's just start with the camera people, how do you make a decision to, who you're going to hire as your camera person?

MA: Well, yes, I mean, I've worked with a lot of Cameramen. And I sort of envy people who have fixed crews in a way, you know, but then you have to be very rich to do that, like Steven [Steven Spielberg], you know, I mean, because how often are you gonna go be in sync with your DP [Director of Photography]? I do like--I'm odd. I like familiarity, I mean, I use the same cameraman [George Jesse Turner] in the UP [UP series: 7 UP, 14 UP, 21 UP, 28 UP, 35 UP, 42 UP, 49 UP, 56 UP] film as much as, you know, always; he's done it since 21 [aka 21 UP], but that's a different thing. I'm sometimes torn between the familiarity of a friend doing it and a new challenge, something different. And you know, that's where I am at the moment, do I want to... I don't have anybody really that I'm in love with, that I wouldn't show up on a set without. I'm very interested in getting some new blood, I mean, young blood into my visual patterns as it were. So, you know, it tends to be, again, case by case. I mean, there's certain Writers, I mean I'd love to work with Steven Knight all the time. But Production Designers, Editors I tend to stick with. That's a very difficult relationship, ‘cause it is so intimate and it is obviously crucially important, and you are stuck together in a room with someone for weeks and weeks. So, I'm very weary of that; I don't change Editors really with, you know, with too much delight, because who knows what lies down the road with that? And that's such a delicate relationship.

INT: I mean, at one time when we were choosing camera people, it was difficult because you had to get the films, if you wanna get the films, or you could talk to other Directors who'd work with them, or something like that. But it took, you know, time just to be able to get yourself prepped. Nowadays, if you, someone suggests a Cameraperson, before you go in you can look at 20 movies, and already know all. Now it's personality. [MA: Yeah.] But in terms of personality, what are you looking for in personality from a Cameraperson.

MA: Well, you know, it would always be a meeting. I would never a cameraperson on spec. The personality, I like DPs [Director of Photography] who like Actors. You know, I've had a couple of DPs who didn't like Actors, and I found that very, very difficult to deal with. They were sort of dismissive of them. I can't deal with that. I love a DP who will talk to me. Not someone who just goes off as some do in their own world and do whatever they want. And I think it's very important they like Actors, because they do determine the rhythm of the day, the DP. You know, and I've had DPs work with me who’ve just used as much time as they can to light and then give me no time to shoot. But an ac--a DP [Director of Photography] who likes an Actor will never do that. So I think perhaps that's the most essential thing. You know, ‘cause I've had experiences when it hasn't been the case, and it's been very destructive in a sense. So I suppose that's the most important thing, other than, again, a personality issue. But again, I'm not, I don't want to be everybody's best friend. I'm not talking about that. I mean, there can be something abrasive about the cameraman, but if he makes sense to me and I think, you know, we're on the same page, I'm very interested in what they think of the script, you know, how intelligently they can talk about that. And just listen to me, but also question me. And maybe give me a hard time, you know, make me... because I remember working with Paul Sylbert on GORKY PARK, and he said, I said, "You know, I don't know how to talk to you about things." He said, "Well, listen,” he said, “your job is to speak to me, the DP, the Editor, the Composer, in incredible platitudes. And our job is to translate that into the real thing.” You know, ‘cause it's awful. I mean I don't... I mean, I like music, I've done stuff about music, but I couldn't tell you anything about it. For me, talking to a Composer is laughable. But what Sylbert [Paul Sylbert] said to me all those years ago, you know, gave me a certain confidence that you can be very crass and very general, and someone who's on your side, and someone who's gifted, you know, can turn that, like a Writer, like we said, you know, Tom turned your script into something, they just get it. I don't know. [INT: How do you know that issue that you said so importantly about the DP actually having respect for the Actor, how are you finding that out?] Well, it has to be by talking. I mean, maybe I'll do a check, you know, I mean, I'll find a Director that I have some sort of relationship with and who's worked with him, and check that out, ‘cause otherwise, you're right, you can't tell. Sometimes the first thing you do, a kind of camera test and all that, and that can be pretty brutal, but I think I would make sure that I knew about that, that I'd had some info on that, because I couldn't take that risk of someone being totally charming to me and then, you know, then suddenly abusing one of the Actors or abusing the Actor to me or something like that.

INT: In choosing our Crew, sometimes--there’re certain rolls that I think bring out prima donnas, but the prima donnas are really good at what they do, but they're still prima donnas. [MA: Right, right, go on.] Now I might be being too generalized, since I’m talk about wardrobe and potentially production design, where you can run into prima donnas and…

MA: Yeah, yeah. That's a tough one, you know? That's a tough one, because I've had that, and I sort of let it go. You know, I had to replace it, because they, I mean, they're very important people. They get to spend the money first of anybody, you know, the Production Designer, whether it's choosing locations or designing sets or setting the visual tone. And so, I don't think prima donnas are really all right, at all, unless they're so gifted. But, you know, I did AGATHA with Storaro [Vittorio Storaro], who was not a prima donna, who was the hardest working guy, who would climb up on roofs to see where he could get lights to come through windows and stuff like that. I mean, he showed up in his big hat and his big scarf and you thought, "Oh, my god." But, you know, he was great. I mean he wasn't a prima donna. I think if someone's a prima donna, there's something wrong with them. And they're not gonna be my sort of person who I want on my sort of thing. So if I get a sense of that, I think, you know, I wouldn't hire anybody, you know, on spec. I would meet anybody of a major role on the Crew. And so if I got the feeling that it was a prima donna, I think I'd move on.

INT: Let's talk about production design, since you've done such a variety of pieces. From some which is, the production design is you've got find the locations, 'cause it's all locations to things that have been almost all fantasy, like NARNIA [THE CHRONICLES OF NARNIA: THE VOYAGE OF THE DAWN TREADER]. What's been your process if you've got a Production Designer, you like her work, his work, you've decided. Now, what's the dialogue?

MA: Usually, the dialogue is the real world. You know, what do we want it to look like? You know, and what does it... and looking at books together, maybe books of art or something like that, or you know, pictures, photographs. I mean, again, to try and get a kind of on-the-same-page feeling about it. So I always, it's nice if a Production Designer will come in with magazines and things like that, and say, "I like this." And it gives me some, I like some concrete reference to be able to deal with it. I'm not very good at articulating kind of architectural styles or colors, or all that, but if someone will show me something, then I feel much more comfortable, then I've got some context for it. So I think that's the first thing. I mean, I got in a tremendous muddle, really, with NARNIA, because, you know, that was so complicated. I mean, that started off, you know, with concept artists, these brilliant men, you know, women who would just come in and do these wonderful drawings and things like that. I don't know, I mean, this was so out of my playbook as it were, that, you know… And then to criticize it, you know, I mean, I mean, to say, "Well, this is absolutely beautiful, but what does it mean? What is it doing?" Something I said before and someone gives me a blank page on something like that, I'm at a complete loss, you know. So that was very, very stressful, and you know, they would bring me all this great work, and they had really good people. You know, and you knew you couldn't use it all, and you have to find a way to articulate why you didn't like it and what was wrong with it, and I found that very, very difficult. I mean, I think I got better at it, but you know, especially with our preproduction was so long, because we kept being, you know, put back, so that that was the hardest. I mean, the Bond [THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH] thing wasn't hard, because, you know, that was sort of more realistically based. And that was sort of fun to figure out stunts and to figure out machines, you know, and gadgets and stuff like that. That had an element of the real world, and, you know, I could make some contribution to that. But I was really stumped in the first few months of, you know, of the NARNIA thing, because these guys are so gifted. [INT: So you'd get like six different ships and say...?] Yeah, I know, and they'd all look beautiful. And then I would try and think practically about it, but I was really stumped, you know, and I had a slightly prima donna Production Designer at that time, and so... and there was a good deal of tension going on there, 'cause this concept artists were prima donna-ish, too, you know, 'cause they sit there with their paints and everything and they do this exquisite work, you know, and... Anyway, so that was really tough.

INT: Let's talk about the difference for you choosing location versus building a set, when you want to build, if or when you're forced to build. Where are you on that, like--

MA: Well, I will--I prefer shooting on location, but I will build a set if I know it's gonna be important to take walls out, to do this, to do that, if I've got an enormous amount of material to shoot and something where I'm gonna have to ring the changes. I'm not frightened to build a set. I mean, instinctively I prefer to be on location. I think it adds, you know, bricks and mortar add a reality to the process, and I think it helps Actors sometimes to be in a real places. So that's my choice, but I won't hesitate. You know, if I've got, you know, 15 pages in a bedroom, you know, then I'll build it. [INT: So like on COAL MINER’S DAUGHTER, did you build anything? Like the house for example?] No, well, no we didn't. We built... no, that's not true. No, that was a mixture. You know, we built the exterior. Sometimes what I like to do in that case is, you know, we built the exterior and you built the lobby into the room, and they you'd have to build a cut-in to get into the room. And that's what we did with Butcher Hollow [Butcher Hollow, Kentucky], with their house, you know, we built the exteriors, we built some entrances and exits, and then we, you know, in a warehouse we built the sets. [INT: Because you have a, I mean, when you want to, you'll move within a set.] Yeah. [INT: But I mean, that, I'm actually even thinking of the sequence when Tommy Lee Jones asked to marry her. And you're moving from one room to another room in the same shot.] Yeah. [INT: And so therefore, you're... ‘cause I guess what I'm asking now is when you're in the process of working with your Production Designer, choosing a location or building a set, how visually oriented are you already to your storytelling. So you're gonna say, “I wanna be able to get from this room to that room,” particularly if it's gonna build.] I think pretty much. I think I have always had an interest in the rhythm of a story as I have with a structure. You know that you don't want to shoot every scene the same, you know, you don't want to do scenes, put a lot of scenes with a lot of cover on them. You know, a lot of cutting on them, because you'll wear the audience out. I always like to, you know, in a sense, get the rhythm of the film in a kind of simple way, so I know this is gonna be a very, very cutty scene. So whether this is a location or build, I'd like the next scene to have more fluidity to it. I'm very aware of that, of an audience getting tired of a certain rhythm and also I think it's good to keep an audience on its toes by changing the rhythm of the stuff. It doesn't always work like that, but that is a very important thing to me. And when I’m in designing the set or looking at, making a decision between whether I do an location or do it on the set, that’s something that also, you know, I put into the puzzle as it were. But I'm very conscious of that. [INT: So then you will have thought about the visual style of certain sequences, or maybe all the sequence, before you're even in the process with the Production Designer or?] Well, it's more, not necessarily, well, it's a visual start in terms of camera movement and staging that. I mean, in terms of the production design style, well, we've had talks about that, but I haven't gotten into any detail, and I prefer... I don't draw and all this sort of stuff. But I think in terms of, you know, the movement structure of a movie, then I will have thought about that, and say, you know, “I need more space in this particular set, ‘cause on this particular location I need more. I want to get away from it, and the film is very claustrophobic at this time and I want much more air,” and that will determine what the location of the build is. So that to me is very important.

INT: Now, when you’re doing that on your own now, scouting locations, and I'm aware of this, because I see that you have a sense when you're outside of allowing your people to move. [MA: Yeah.] You know, you're outside therefore they can move, so that they will move. And I mean, I see that in COAL MINER’S [COAL MINER’S DAUGHTER], I see that even in the dialogue scene between the would-be-husband and wife in just in AMAZING GRACE. You could've done that whole scene with the two of them sitting somewhere. I mean, they end up sitting in--that movie, they end up sitting at a, whatever it is, a bench outside, but there’re all those shots. So as you’re on a location, either that or I'm thinking, for example, when she, when Tommy Lee Jones comes with the Jeep and she's [Sissey Spacek] sort of walking, and he gets her to, tries to get her to walk, and there's, you’re by train tracks and all the rest and… there’s a, I mean, there’s a sense of movement in both of these things, based on knowing the space that you're in. And I wanna know how your brain is thinking when you…

MA: No, it's, you know, those are two great examples, really. I knew I was gonna have to do that scene on the move, I knew the scene in AMAZING GRACE, I knew the scene had to come to a stop, you know, for its resolution. I knew that. So I knew I needed to get as much movement, and as much variety in it, so I could give that film that kind of shape, so it would start out in a kind, you know, not in a language sense at all, but it would be very mobile. And then as it got more intense, then I'd get much more power out of the coverage I knew at the end. I would hold back on the coverage. I'm very interested in coverage, you know, I'm very interested where to use it. I hate it. Sometimes you have to do it, you just... you know, like the dreaded dinner scenes, when you just have to cover everybody looking this way to that. But I'm also very much aware as I have…as a scene is written, as I get used to it to, you know, know the rhythm of the cutting, and I commit to that. In fact, the very first film I ever did, because I was scared of the Producers, because I thought they didn't have any taste, and they would probably recut the movie, I shot it in a way that they couldn't recut it. So when I committed to tracking shots and all this sort of stuff, so I could preserve my perception of the rhythm of the film. But I do that anyway, and, you know, I'll commit to a tracking shot, knowing maybe that six months down the line I'll regret it. But I'll commit to it and do it like that just because I believe in my instinct, if you like, to get the rhythm of the film correct. Even if, you know, the scenes will suddenly be in a different order. But I know what the crucial scenes are, I know the scenes that I'm gonna have to cover to hell. You know, so I can... I'll have as many options as where to be at what particular moment in this particular crisis in the film. So I know I can't wear an audience out before that. I got to give the audience some breath, some air, so they'll be able to take that particular scene. [INT: Now, you know in advance that those scenes may be what you're... that's the nature of that particular scene, I'm saying in advance, this is before shooting, and now, I now need to look at, I've got to find this exterior, that's going to allow me to do this.] Right. Yeah. [INT: I assume.] Yeah. I'm doing that this minute. You know, I know I’ve got a lot of scenes in the hospital, I know I've got to get him out. The scenes will became repetitive and boring in the hospital, and I've got to get it out, and I've got to find a place to do it, which is gonna give me some air, a place that roughly represents what, you know the sets are already built, and you know there are standard sets for this. And I know I've got to get outside, I know it, otherwise every scene is gonna have the same rhythm to it.

INT: Speaking of getting outside, in NELL there's a very significant space, which is where she swims and… How, I mean, are you, again, this is about location scouting, are you looking at 50 places to find one? Do you ask somebody to go out and, you know, “Find me 50, show me photographs, I'll go to two.” Where are you?

MA: No, I'll put the legwork in. I mean it's never quite as exaggerated as that. And again, I suppose on a film like that, and a lot of films, you know, it's nice if you can to get, you know, a sense of using a place for many different things, i.e., a sense of a little world, so you're not bouncing around all over North Carolina doing things. So here's where we're gonna build that, you know, the cabin, because there's the water, and Dante Spinotti who shot it, figured out where the sun go down, so he could get the dawn, or the sunset, whatever it was. This is exactly where we’re gonna build it. You know, and then I would try and find other places around it that I could use for other scenes to give a sense of, you know, continuity to it all if you want. So to try and not just for economy, but just to, you know, give a sense of place if you want. So, you know, you see things more than once, you don't just do a location, you never see it again, that you can move things around. [INT: In finding sort of a wider spaces like the Grand Ole Opry, or the courtrooms in CLASS ACTION, or the House of Commons, I assume in the Gene Hackman movie [CLASS ACTION] you built, or you may not have?] No, we didn't. I mean it was amazing. We had kernel stroke of luck. We went in just after the earthquake, and they let us go in and shoot--we shot in the town hall, and we shot in the courtrooms and then they realized the building could fall down, so we'd finished, but then they shut the building down for ages, and had to, you know, re-strengthen it and all that sort of stuff. No, we shot in real courtrooms on that, because they let us. It’s so beautiful, the town hall in San Francisco, that they let us use it. [INT: And you weren't frustrated by camera angles and getting...?] No, I mean, a courtroom is a courtroom, really. No, I mean, I'm not unaware of that, but I think I'll trade that in sometimes, you know, for... It might be a tricky location to shoot, and it might be practically quite tricky, it might be, you know, you might have to shut down for a certain amount of time, or you know, if the rush hour goes through our whatever like that, but I take a location probably over a set. You know, unless as I said, the set has to do so much work that it's gonna have to become so flexible and so mobile for me, that, you know, I'll be shooting myself in the foot if I didn't take advantage of building something. [INT: Speaking of the dinner scenes, because you had two, you had a couple of big ones in AMAZING GRACE, specifically, ‘cause you got lots of people at those tables. In choosing those spaces, too, are you kind of aware?] Yeah, I mean, yeah, very much so. When you've got a dinner scene like that, I mean, the circular ones are the killers. When, you know, everybody's eye line is changing every second of the time. I mean I try to avoid that at all costs. But, you know, that movie was shot entirely on location, apart from the House of Commons, which was a location, but it was church. And what I was looking for, and this was the great savior for me, it had to have a balcony around the top, and we found a space, which was, you know, a church, which had the balcony, and then we dressed it in. But everything on that was location. You know and it's amazing what stuff is left. [INT: Now, did you add, I mean you have all those, because that's a period piece, you've got all those, the scenes by the docks. What got, you know, ‘cause you've a couple little wide shots.] Yeah, that was a visual effect. I mean, you know, I knew I had to deliver that. I mean it was a very claustrophobic film. And again, it was just, you know, I'm a great believer that as a Director you have to know the budget in so far that you know, you have to decide where you want to spend the money. Everything can't be as you want it. And I, you know, I felt that I had to deliver the British navy [Royal Navy], I had to in a couple of images show, you know, that the Navy, the ports, the sea was a big part of English life with, you know, the trade, you know, the slaves going out and the wheat coming in, and all this kind of stuff. And we really had to spend a lot of money on that. There was one tiny piece of an old, you know, port in Gloucester [England] in the middle, on a river that had really fairly well preserved a couple of buildings. And we just, visual effected it out of existence. I mean, we just built the whole thing on visual effects, and spent a lot of money, but I just felt I had to deliver that, otherwise, you know, the visual interest in the film will be, I think, compromised. You know, we weren't doing stuff on boats; we weren't doing stuff on plantations. You know, we were limited in streets, but I felt I had to give that image of what London Docks was like.